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Illegal to babysit your friend's child for free in Michigan

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Raven View Post
    Yes, we are sisters, but no, that doesn't mean squat wrt the various debates/discussions

    There was a recent thread wherein TBB made a remark to Kendall on the very subject of daycares. About 10 people disagreed with TBB, yet not one of them was accused of being frothy. I purposely did not comment, and even joked with my sister that I didn't because I am never allowed to agree with her on any topic because someone will make the same bogus claim WQ did here. (And it usually is WQ making the bogus claim).

    Do my sister and I agree on a lot of topics? Yes. I have another sister with whom I DISagree with on almost every topic. What does either fact have to do with my DISagreement with what WQ and WOG said in this thread. WQ is just attempting to reduce the *discussion* to a *free for all* with her oft repeated and always bullshit comment.
    It is? It's usually me who makes "the bogus claim?"

    First, define "the bogus claim." Do you mean that I'm the most frequent maker of claims that are bogus, or are you talking about the specific claim that you get frothy when your sister is involved in a debate with other people?

    Either way, please prove it. Do a search to see how many times I've made that claim and compare it to how many other people make similar statements. You don't have to use a spread sheet and get the math exact. I'd just be interested to see any support for my being the one who usually says this and that I frequently repeat it.

    You were the one who got wound up in this debate, and then you said that I was "disingenuous" and said I was "back-peddling." To me, that sounds like you were calling me dishonest. You were the one to get snarky and bitchy, first. And, it was all because I disagreed with your sister that people babysitting a couple of kids in their home was a bad thing.
    I apologize for my previous signature.

    I still have them turned off.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Linda View Post
      If there were to be no regulations around home day care, then we'd end up with what are essentially human puppy mills - horrid conditions, children ignored and not properly cared for, all for the sake of a buck. And it SHOULD be down to the parents to find good daycare, so that makes this even worse because it would prey upon the poorest of the people out there who need to earn a meager living and are forced to find cheap care. Or the children of the uncaring parents would be double-victimized because even though their parent/s could afford better, they're squeezing their buck by cheaping out and the care provider is maximizing their buck by over-extending and providing too little care and resources for the children.

      There needs to be regulations and oversight. Or else the kids lose.

      However, those regulations should still be grounded in reality and common sense. In this case, they clearly are NOT.

      I think around here, you only need to be licensed if you have over so many children, if you receive state funds, etc. It's been a long time since I've looked into it so I don't know for sure.
      Nobody thinks that there should be unregulated large-scale day care. But, quite a few people think that there's nothing wrong with someone watching a limited number of children in their homes for money without a license.

      I think it should be allowed. When I lived in America, I left my eldest - then a baby - with a woman from my church. I knew she was at least as good at taking care of him as I was.

      I would have less of a problem with the idea of requiring a license if the license were relatively easy to get and inexpensive, but then what would be the point of it?
      I apologize for my previous signature.

      I still have them turned off.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Raven View Post
        I very clearly said "and/or unlicensed workers"

        You've ignored the fact that some sort of license is required for basically every job that a person can get paid to do. Do you think it would be OK for my company to hire an unlicensed real estate agent because it would be cheaper? Perhaps the pharmacy can hire unlicensed people to fill your prescriptions? How about unlicensed teachers in public schools? And as I said, even the lawn care company is supposed to have a license.
        The bolded is just utter crap. I've have never had a license to do any job. Obviously a pharmacist/doctor/whatever needs to have training and licenses. Pizza worker - not so much.

        Tbh I don't even know what the rules are regarding unlicensed child care in Canada where I live. People get in-laws, etc to look after kids all the time. I know that if a child care facility is unlicensed you won't get a tax receipt to claim it on insurance as a deductible.

        I don't think all childcare facilities should be unlicensed. If I was sending my infant to daycare it would definitely be licensed. Again I think parents need to take responsibility for ensuring their children are safe and taken care of. In Canada families are entitled to 1 year of maternity/parental leave so not too many infants are in day care. If I had to put my 8 year in old in before/after care I wouldn't really care if the place was licensed as long as I knew the family, etc. He's old enough to tell me if bad mojo is going down.

        Comment


        • #79
          I'm a bit lost... this thread confused me. Who are sisters?


          Crystal
          mommy to Hannah 5/99, Malachi 10/26/00, Chloe 10/20/03 and baby Jonas 10/19/06

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by faithhopelovely View Post
            I'm a bit lost... this thread confused me. Who are sisters?
            Kendall and Raven.
            "Our job is not to toughen our children up to face a cruel and heartless world. Our job is to raise children who will make the world a little less cruel and heartless."

            L.R Nost

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Linda View Post
              If there were to be no regulations around home day care, then we'd end up with what are essentially human puppy mills - horrid conditions, children ignored and not properly cared for, all for the sake of a buck. And it SHOULD be down to the parents to find good daycare, so that makes this even worse because it would prey upon the poorest of the people out there who need to earn a meager living and are forced to find cheap care. Or the children of the uncaring parents would be double-victimized because even though their parent/s could afford better, they're squeezing their buck by cheaping out and the care provider is maximizing their buck by over-extending and providing too little care and resources for the children.

              There needs to be regulations and oversight. Or else the kids lose.

              However, those regulations should still be grounded in reality and common sense. In this case, they clearly are NOT.

              I think around here, you only need to be licensed if you have over so many children, if you receive state funds, etc. It's been a long time since I've looked into it so I don't know for sure.
              You honestly believe that? If there were no licenses we'd have human mills. I think most parents do what is best for their children and therefore most wouldn't choose to put them in a human mill.

              When I was looking for daycare for ds when he was 1 I went the licensed home daycare route. One person who came highly recommended to me was the worst one I saw. The agency raved about how great this woman was. I don't think they knew that she was taking on extra kids over their limit. I as a parent recognized that this place was not appropriate for my child even though it was licensed. I would expect all parents to know everything they can about who they leave their child with.

              Comment


              • #82
                Sorry for the serial posting. I just looked up Ontario's regulations and this is what I found:

                In Ontario, there are two types of child care — informal
                care and licensed child care.
                Informal child care may be provided by relatives,
                friends, neighbours or nannies. This type is not
                regulated by law.
                Licensed child care is regulated by law to meet specific
                standards of care. It is also inspected and monitored
                by the Ministry of Children and Youth Services to help
                provide a healthy and safe environment for children.
                I think that is reasonable and fair. I don't think it has to be one or the other.

                ETA you can have 5 or less children and not require a license - more than 5 requires a license.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Thank you JT! I was thinking she meant WoG and Raven and then got all confused again.


                  Crystal
                  mommy to Hannah 5/99, Malachi 10/26/00, Chloe 10/20/03 and baby Jonas 10/19/06

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Wise Old Goat View Post
                    Sorry for the serial posting. I just looked up Ontario's regulations and this is what I found:

                    I think that is reasonable and fair. I don't think it has to be one or the other.

                    ETA you can have 5 or less children and not require a license - more than 5 requires a license.
                    no one said it has to be one or the other, but even as you found in Ontario - if there are more than five kids a license is required. As such, why would you question someone who expects those who should have a license to have a license?

                    Interestingly, under Ontario's law the OP Mom would definitely fall within the "informal care" including the 'under 5 children' rule. And I agree with you, the Ontario law seems very reasonable. Michigan's does not.
                    "Let us not be weighed down by the complexity of our situation, but united by its singularity as we re-establish a system that protects our rights." - OWS

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Kendall asked me (I think it was her - maybe you ) If I wanted all daycare unlicensed. I never said that - I said that there should be both options and it's up the parents to choose what is best for their families

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        This is getting redundant, but this is what I have been addressing from the start:

                        Originally posted by Kendall501 View Post
                        Personally I wish they would crack down on illegal "home" daycares in my area.
                        Originally posted by Wise Old Goat View Post
                        Why? This case aside because I don't feel it is daycare. Why does it bother you? I think the onus to find good, safe daycare is on the parents. I'm sure that those who use "illegal" daycare know it's not legal and are choosing that route anyways - probably for monetary reasons. If you get rid of all those private day cares you get rid of affordable day care for a lot of people.

                        I'm sure there are some very unsafe scary ones out there - but again I think the onus should be on the parents to suss all that out.
                        If we all agree that certain types of daycare providers should be licensed, then why would you question a crack-down on "illegal" (those who do not obtain the required licenses) day cares?
                        "Let us not be weighed down by the complexity of our situation, but united by its singularity as we re-establish a system that protects our rights." - OWS

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Because I don't think all home day cares require a license.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Wise Old Goat View Post
                            Because I don't think all home day cares require a license.
                            The ones she referred to as "illegal" do They wouldn't be "illegal" if they didn't require licenses.
                            "Let us not be weighed down by the complexity of our situation, but united by its singularity as we re-establish a system that protects our rights." - OWS

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Wise Old Goat View Post
                              You honestly believe that? If there were no licenses we'd have human mills. I think most parents do what is best for their children and therefore most wouldn't choose to put them in a human mill.
                              It's not that I think many or most home daycares would go that route.

                              But honestly believe that there would be a few - maybe even good intentioned people who themselves are just trying to "make ends meet" and suddenly they are taking in 15 or more kids and watering down the apple juice to make it go further and maybe even, you know, giving that one obnoxious kid some Sudafed etc.

                              Taking care of children professionally is important. Having a system where JUST ANYONE can do it willy-nilly as a profession (I mean as a major source of income, presenting themselves as a professional) is scary. After all, our kids are vulnerable.

                              I'm not promoting that what happened in the OP is sane or rational. I'm saying that if someone is watching X number of kids more than X number of hours per week for an exchange of fees for services, then there should be some professional oversight.

                              Everywhere we let people deal with our kids, we seem to have that. I have to go through a background check to be a scout leader. My husband had to attend training and have a background check to be a coach. We license teachers and many other people who deal with our children. This is not a "buyer beware" situation because they are children and they are vulnerable. Having rules and regulations to catch extreme abuses is not a ridiculous thing.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by WQ View Post
                                No, I think there should be licensed child care facilities because some people want that. Some people want to know that a facility has met certain professional standards. In Cincinnati, the two sorts of child care co-exist side-by-side very well.
                                It's not that they have to meet "professional" standards, it's about basic health and safety.

                                Originally posted by Ursyl View Post
                                But there is a difference between babysitting or a playdate or spending the time before the bus arrives at a neighbor's house and daycare. Daycare should be licensed IMO. But babysitting? no.
                                Absolutely.

                                Originally posted by Linda View Post
                                I'm not promoting that what happened in the OP is sane or rational. I'm saying that if someone is watching X number of kids more than X number of hours per week for an exchange of fees for services, then there should be some professional oversight.

                                Everywhere we let people deal with our kids, we seem to have that. I have to go through a background check to be a scout leader. My husband had to attend training and have a background check to be a coach. We license teachers and many other people who deal with our children. This is not a "buyer beware" situation because they are children and they are vulnerable. Having rules and regulations to catch extreme abuses is not a ridiculous thing.

                                Comment

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